Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

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Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:40 pm

What is more important, standing behind a counter taking food orders, or restarting someone's heart? As a prospective member of the Health Care profession, I believe health-care professionals are not fairly compensated for the work they do, the quality of labor being under appreciated. Health care workers must always be ready to provide the best possible care, mistakes can cost lives.

A recent study by Medscape, a part of Web-MD Health Professional Network,revealed that “49% of doctors believe they're not fairly compensated. Of primary care physicians, this percentage increases to 54%.” The medical profession is  always in high demand, and many positions require many years of schooling. Those who acquire these jobs however are under-appreciated, underpaid, and overworked.

For example, the average Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) earns around 13 dollars per hour, one of the lowest paying professions in the nation according to usnews.com. In Albuquerque the minimum wage is 8.50 an hour according to cabq.gov, leaving EMT's earning only slightly more than someone earning a minimum wage. Many EMT's work nearly 12 hour shifts to sustain suitable living standards as someone doing half the work load. It seems as though that the quality of saving lives is measured in the same light as working for a fast food chain. Although having a minimum wage job in no aspect is bad; These medical professional are struggling to make a living because of their compensation.

Not just EMT's, both nurses and doctors struggle as well, arguing that the quality of their job far exceeds the compensation they are receiving. Professionals who help with the physical survival of others should not have to worry about their economic survival. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by AdamMkIV on Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:43 pm

If I may ask, are you suggesting focusing on just raising the minimum wage to suit all professions, or just on this specific one?
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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:55 pm

AdamMkIV wrote:If I may ask, are you suggesting focusing on just raising the minimum wage to suit all professions, or just on this specific one?
Rasing the minimum wage would have the opposite affect of what I am suggesting. Some of the  health care professionals are making only sightly above minimum wage, struggling to reach suitable living conditions.  I am suggesting  to offer better compensation to health-care providers because the quality of their work far exceeds most minimum wage jobs. At one time, these workers made significantly more money than minimum wage.  As minimum wage has crept up over the years, their income has not kept pace, therefore lowering their buying power.  Raising minimum wage causes inflation, as prices rise as well to pay for the additional payroll.  Everyone who is making more than minimum wage loses when it is raised. That is why I am suggesting that health-care professionals should be better compensated. I hope that answered your question.Surprised

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by AdamMkIV on Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:25 pm

The problem is your missing something major. There is no job in our country that can be supported by anyone who lives on minimum wage. Our federal minimum wage is $8.50. The meaning of "wage" is a capability of living, meaning your able to not need 2-3 jobs to sustain yourself. I come from a military background and I am accustomed to being underpaid. However, it is unfair that one group specifically gets a raise and everyone else doesn't.

What I'm trying to bring home is that even if you do work at McDonalds, the meaning of a living wage is to be able to live within a comfortable means, to buy a house and a car, have your bills covered and still have a bit left over. Statistically, the amount needed to actually survive if your a single adult is $21,020 (after taxes). This allows you to cover all your bills and have 2k a year to play with how you want.

Add in a child to this mix and the rate increases to $43,679 for expenses and 3k for emergency/play. The numbers only double as children get added into the equation, meaning that no single adult can afford to give the care needed for their child working at McDonalds or anything under $21.00 an hour. In summary, you cant have one job be above the standard while Fireman, Policeman, Military, Security, all are left in the dust. It has to be an all or nothing

Unions help this, in that they look at the setting for the job and try to have a better handle wages. Had to add in the union point to help show that I'm keeping with my topic as well.
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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:49 pm

Unfortunately, medical workers are not the only ones with wages that don't keep up. I chose to focus on medical workers, as that is the career path I am interested in pursuing. When someone like me takes a look at potential wages for a career, they may end up discouraged, and end up following a different career path. If you are in it for just the money, why would anyone subject themselves to eight to ten years of school when you can just get an unskilled job. Why even go to college?

As for the Unions, historically, unions have helped in some labor markets, but sometimes they end up hurting the employees they are supposed to protect. Union jobs typically protect based on seniority, yet people are not equal in skills or work ethic. Many union workers will get lazy because they have the seniority and are very difficult to fire, while the up and coming new person with good skills and a strong work ethic is let go. Where is the incentive to try harder?

For me, I am not in it just for the money. I am passionate about helping people and potentially saving lives. On the other hand, I am concerned that I will not be able to maintain a good living standard while following my passion.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by mhamel on Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:04 pm

AdamMkIVVery true... but i dont think you have to keep with your topic for one, and also i dont believe that it is fair to say that the medical proffesion is just as overworked as the rest of the jobs in the world.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by AdamMkIV on Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:21 pm

I unfortunately agree a bit Kelsey, but is that not true about all buisnesses that some have bad management or workers and still remain there? I know good individuals in unions and bad ones as well, nothing is perfect. However, the percentages of individuals in unions in of itself is exceedingly low, only 12.7% as of close of 2014. The number comes from the federal labor statistics as a heads up. When you start saying a person or two had a bad experience, with all respect your nit picking. There needs to be larger more focused effects that cause issues felt throughout the organization to which the union exists. With that said, I have a request. Please source for me 3 major businesses that have been negatively affected by a unions creation as you have stated that they exist.
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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:23 pm

Here are four examples of large scale union failures:

Hostess
In 2012, 18,000 workers in Texas lost their jobs at Hostess because of a labor dispute.  The Teamsters and Bakers unions stood their ground, and the company was forced to close, leaving everyone at the company out of work.  The assets and branding of Hostess were sold and reopened under new ownership and without unions.

cnbc.com/id/100678728

Saturn
The Saturn car company (part of General Motors) began as a special union contract where workers were empowered as part of the management team.  Their cars were unique and successful as an answer to the import.  They did not share the common parts pool with the rest of GM.  Later, Saturn changed to standard UAW contract.  They no longer manufactured unique cars, as their manufacturing techniques did not fit within the standard contract guidelines.  During the restructuring of GM, Saturn was no longer a unique brand and was shut down.
knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/saturn-a-wealth-of-lessons-from-failure/

Air Traffic Controller strike of 1981
This strike impacted air travel, creating delays, canceled flights and an air travel nightmare for months.  In the end, 11,359 workers lost their jobs and received a lifelong ban on rehire.
history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-fires-11359-air-traffic-controllers

I am not saying that all unions are bad.  Some unions have done great things for their workers; however, there are definitely failures.

In relation to my topic, unionizing the medical field has both beneficial and harmful effects.  

According to Capital Research.org, in places where medical worker unions exist, unions have caused limits to healthcare due to price increases.  Unions create a conflict between patient care and money.  In September 2011 a strike by the nurses union in California may have cost one person their life.  The hospital hired poorly qualified replacement workers, who administered a non-prescribed dosage of a medication resulting in the patient's death.
capitalresearch.org/2012/08/hospital-unionization-harms-the-sick/

This is one example why unions do not fit well within the medical field.

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agree

Post by esmedina on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:01 am

I think that that you are correct years of schooling and the responsibility of lives deserves as much pay as possible.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by AdamMkIV on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:00 pm

KelseyRAyers16 wrote:Here are four examples of large scale union failures:

Hostess
In 2012, 18,000 workers in Texas lost their jobs at Hostess because of a labor dispute.  The Teamsters and Bakers unions stood their ground, and the company was forced to close, leaving everyone at the company out of work.  The assets and branding of Hostess were sold and reopened under new ownership and without unions.

cnbc.com/id/100678728

Saturn
The Saturn car company (part of General Motors) began as a special union contract where workers were empowered as part of the management team.  Their cars were unique and successful as an answer to the import.  They did not share the common parts pool with the rest of GM.  Later, Saturn changed to standard UAW contract.  They no longer manufactured unique cars, as their manufacturing techniques did not fit within the standard contract guidelines.  During the restructuring of GM, Saturn was no longer a unique brand and was shut down.
knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/saturn-a-wealth-of-lessons-from-failure/

Air Traffic Controller strike of 1981
This strike impacted air travel, creating delays, canceled flights and an air travel nightmare for months.  In the end, 11,359 workers lost their jobs and received a lifelong ban on rehire.
history.com/this-day-in-history/reagan-fires-11359-air-traffic-controllers

I am not saying that all unions are bad.  Some unions have done great things for their workers; however, there are definitely failures.

In relation to my topic, unionizing the medical field has both beneficial and harmful effects.  

According to Capital Research.org, in places where medical worker unions exist, unions have caused limits to healthcare due to price increases.  Unions create a conflict between patient care and money.  In September 2011 a strike by the nurses union in California may have cost one person their life.  The hospital hired poorly qualified replacement workers, who administered a non-prescribed dosage of a medication resulting in the patient's death.
capitalresearch.org/2012/08/hospital-unionization-harms-the-sick/

This is one example why unions do not fit well within the medical field.

Your statistics are indeed correct, but your claim is more focused on the effect of what the union did as per striking. The concept is that when a business accepts a union, they accept that they will treat the individuals fairly and will adhere to the standards discussed with each group. In medicinal fields, the perks to a union enable a global protection against patients sueing them over potential malpractice, being they sue the union and not the person. There are exceptions to the rule as ever, some individuals in and out of medical unions do malpractice and are ignorant, but that number doesn't represent everyone.

I will however, contest your statement about unions being negative to 2 out of the three companies you referenced. Ronald Reagan ordered the workers to be fired 2 days after the strike was organized and instrumented. The backing behind the purpose of the strike (organized by PATCO, or post authority transit corporation) was for better wages, shorter work week and better working conditions. ATC's will work tirelessly throughout the day and if nessisary, 40+ hour weeks. It is not uncommon for ATC's to go 2 full days in the tower due the importance of their job. Conditions like this boiled over in 1981 and caused them to strike, shutting down the airports to bring attention to their plight.

The president's response and the company was immedietly firing and banning them from rehire because they did not cater to what the company wanted. With all respect, all this shows is that the company wanted the union's destruction and was authorized under corporate greed to do so. In fact, it was this incident which brought to light the concept of labor attacks and has since enacted many companies to follow in it's foot steps.

The second case you present, the Saturn car company, they were loosing money quickly back in 1992 and it continued through 1997. LATimes posted multiple articles throughout the 90's conducted by surveys of the financial records and business exectutives pointing out a net loss on average of $500 million over 92-97. Slowly customers began to turn away from Saturn products as the quality became authoritzed to be more inexpensive and poor quality. The result was the company beginning to liquidate assets of the union memmbers working there, cutting off incentives and even going back on their contracts of promised 401K contribution. People's lives were slowly becoming destroyed as Saturn went under and GM swept it under the rug as time progressed. Eventually the workers striked as pointed out, but lost their jobs as GM counted it's losses and simply liquidated the company, letting all ties to the workers be cut off.

With this excuse that GM Lost money, they went to the Federal Government in 2012 and requested a bailout, claiming they did not have enough to continue and that Americans needed work. The truth of the matter is once again corporate greed, ignoring and forgetting those that worked so hard and honorably for an American company.
These two examples don't show unions being bad for business, it shows that business forgot it's roots and chose to destroy it's own promises rather than work with it's own people.
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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:39 pm

esmedina wrote:I think that that you are correct years of schooling and the responsibility of lives deserves as much pay as possible.

Well I am glad you agree. Very Happy

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by kayleighBartlett on Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:51 pm

I am also a health care worker and I agree that as in most job fields some health care professionals are not being properly compensated for their jobs. This being said I think that your argument could be made more effective if you focused on one specific job in the health care field as many health care professionals are composited very well for their jobs. In addition you should consider whether or not these medical professionals deserve the pay that you are suggesting they get. Just because someone graduated with a nursing degree or a medical degree does not necessarily mean that they should get payed as much as someone who graduated from the same program who is better at their job. You're opening sentence is also a red herring fallacy as it distracts from your point by talking about fast food. Because it doesn't matter which one is more important because you are not arguing that more people should be doctors than fast food workers. And fast food workers have nothing to do with how much doctors and other health care professions make.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:55 pm

kayleighBartlett wrote:I am also a health care worker and I agree that as in most job fields some health care professionals are not being properly compensated for their jobs. This being said I think that your argument could be made more effective if you focused on one specific job in the health care field as many health care professionals are compensated very well for their jobs. In addition you should consider whether or not these medical professionals deserve the pay that you are suggesting they get. Just because someone graduated with a nursing degree or a medical degree does not necessarily mean that they should get payed as much as someone who graduated from the same program who is better at their job. You're opening sentence is also a red herring fallacy as it distracts from your point by talking about fast food. Because it doesn't matter which one is more important because you are not arguing that more people should be doctors than fast food workers. And fast food workers have nothing to do with how much doctors and other health care professions make.

I am glad you agree with my stance on health-care workers needing to earn a better compensation. It is true that some providers are compensated well for their jobs, however, statistically saying, many   people feel they are not. As I stated in my original claim "“49% of doctors believe they're not fairly compensated". Also out of those who conducted the survey, according to nursingtimes.net "86% said they did not get paid enough money for the job they do. The higher the profession, the higher the compensation. That is, until you figure in basic living expenses.

I focused on the health care as an entirety, a result of personal preference. Not knowing where exactly I want to go with my career, I am trying to gain a personal insight on how health care workers as a whole,feel towards their compensation. A vast majority as stated by the statistics I have listed, are unsatisfied with their earnings.

It is unfair to say that medical professionals may or may not deserve pay. In extreme cases, I would agree and say that those people need to be out of a job within seconds. in this field, if you are not up to par, doing your best possible work, it can cost in peoples lives.

I did narrow down my example however, being EMT's, showing the most extreme case of unfair compensation. Of course they do not have the same line of practice as a nurse or physician does, but they need to be earning more for their work.

Because of their small earnings I compared EMT's to a minimum wage job, such as fast food, to further assert my point that EMT income is only slightly higher.  Their pay reflects their jobs only needing to earn slightly above those working in fast food or any other minimum wage job. In no way stating that people should be doctors, not fast food workers; both jobs needed and valued for different purposes. The opening line was to elucidate what I was going to be comparing later in my claim. Health Care workers should be valued as one, in this case, there is little value reflected in EMT's, making them the most extreme case of unfair health care compensation. $13 an hour is not much for the job that they pursue.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by kayleighBartlett on Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:08 pm

I would like to remind you that in my comment in no place did I say that any health care professional does not deserve pay. I simply stated that they deserve pay within the range of their abilities. In addition I would like to comment that although I have not done the research I don't think that there are many fields in which people are happy with their pay and if I am wrong than you should support this by comparing health care workers dissatisfaction with that of another profession to express that this particular case stands apart from other fields. And in response to your response about fast food workers, If you wanted to make the point that they should be payed more than fast food workers than that is what you should have stated in your post. In addition to this I was only suggesting that you focus on a smaller portion of your topic because given your post you do not make a solid argument for the entirety of health care workers. However if you want to focus on the entire field I suggest being more general and not focusing just on the worst case as you said EMT's are. To do this would be a hasty generalization and would not make for an accurate portrayal of this issue.

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Re: Unfair Compensation for Health Care Professionals

Post by KelseyRAyers16 on Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:04 pm

kayleighBartlett wrote:...I simply stated that they deserve pay within the range of their abilities...

This is true of any profession.  There will always be differences between the low and high achievers.  My point is that the basic range of pay should be more.

kayleighBartlett wrote:...in response to your response about fast food workers, If you wanted to make the point that they should be payed more than fast food workers than that is what you should have stated in your post...

I was using fast food as a reference comparison.  Fast food is "unskilled" labor with no specialized schooling required, whereas the medical requires skills, certifications, and depending on the particular job, a significant amount of schooling. EMT's only earning slightly above those in the fast food line of work, this comparison shows where EMT's stand on a basis of pay. For their credentials and line of profession, they earn a small allotment of income, compared to those working for fast food.

kayleighBartlett wrote:...In addition to this I was only suggesting that you focus on a smaller portion of your topic because given your post you do not make a solid argument for the entirety of health care workers. However if you want to focus on the entire field I suggest being more general and not focusing just on the worst case as you said EMT's are. To do this would be a hasty generalization and would not make for an accurate portrayal of this issue.

I agree the topic could have been narrowed down more, however that is not the approach I wanted to take, as I said, I wanted to gain personal insight on the field as a whole.Surprised  I feel that my claim offers a fair portrayal of the issue, concisely getting my point of unfair compensation across. I kept it short and to the point, my one example being EMT's. Of course I could have easily elaborated more on the other professions within the medical field, however, that would have been too lengthy, asserting my point of medical workers needing better compensation, in the same fashion. Therefore I will stand by my original points. Very Happy

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